What's the opposite of a cougar?

[delphipsmith]

Rereading Gone With the Wind for about the thirteenth time and loving it, as always. However, for the first time I really noticed some of the ages mentioned, and was a bit taken aback. Gerald O'Hara is 43 when he marries Ellen Robillard, who is only 15. Suellen O'Hara's "beau" Frank Kennedy is 40 and she's 14. And Rhett Butler is mentioned as being 30 or 35 at the beginning of the novel and Scarlett is only 16.

For some reason this never struck me before, but even for the 1860s this seems rather a wide age disparity.

Comments

[drinkingcocoa.livejournal.com]

*shudder* I forgot that Gerald was 43! I remembered that Ellen was very young, but it's been a while, and the last time I read GWTW, I was nowhere near my forties. Now, imagining myself looking at a crop of 15-year-olds to choose one for a spouse -- eerrraaggghhh! Shudder. I would probably just... actually, there is a scene from American Beauty that sums it up for me. I won't spoil it if you haven't seen it, but I laughed with delight when I saw it.

[delphipsmith]

Ellen strikes me as having been a very mature fifteen, but what on earth do you suppose middle-aged Frank Kennedy saw in bratty teenage Suellen O'Hara? Or, conversely, why was Suellen attracted by such an "old maid in britches" instead of one of the hot young Tarleton twins? He wasn't even rich, which you'd think would matter to Suellen.

It's a lot easier to grasp what Rhett and Scarlett saw in each other, though given his long-term affection for Belle Watling (whom I picture as much closer to his own age) it still seems a little odd that he'd be all hot for a 16-year-old. Though he does say at one point "I married you to keep your for a pet." Well, at least he didn't marry her until she'd been a widow twice.

[drinkingcocoa.livejournal.com]

It always seemed to me that Suellen and Frank genuinely liked each other and got along. :-) She probably was her best self when with him and getting attention instead of being the middle child and overshadowed by her domineering sister. Scarlett's point of view of Suellen was probably the single worst. :-) I can understand why Rhett liked Scarlett at 16. She wasn't a hypocrite and she expressed anger, and he was heartily sick of hypocrisy.

[nocturnus33]

It depends on the cultural setting. In Chile could have been possible 60 years ago. (Not now)

My inlaws were 16 and 30 when they marry. He was a workman and she a country girl. Back then in 1958, it would have been frown upon in other social class but not unusual in lower social classes.

But it was possible for upper classes one generation before them:

My mother in law was a high school student when my grandpa started teaching her as a history teacher at her school. They both came from very posh families. They fall in love....and my great grandparents decided that my grandma has to drop out from school so they continue their courting.

Both my grandparents and my in-laws had very happy marriages.

[delphipsmith]

True -- the younger you marry, the more happy years you can have together :)

[nocturnus33]

Either that or you turn yourself in to a very young widow ;)

[By the way: My daughter is 19, if she decide to date a man 20 years her senior I will faint]

[mimimanderly.livejournal.com]

Apparently the "Old South" was the heyday for pedophiles as well as racists.

[delphipsmith]

Ooh, snap!

[toblass.livejournal.com]

I think that was more common back in the day. Wasn't Colonel Brandon about 35 when he first met Marianne Dashwood who was only 16?

[delphipsmith]

Yes, 35 and 16. What surprised me wasn't so much the youth of the girls as the enormous age gap between them and the men. Youthful marriage is something that still happens, but the big age disparity is something I associated more with medieval/Renaissance era.

[helenarickman.livejournal.com]

This is not uncommon through history everywhere. Consider that before modern times there was very little birth control and also high mortality during child birth. A man would often marry two or three times during his lifetime - not because of divorce, but because of the wife dying. Her children are left behind so the man would often remarry to have 1. a wife to raise his children 2. a wife to care for the home.

The image that comes to mind for me is so many young women in their teens that travelled to the west with pioneering families.

Finally, if you are a parent and your daughter is old enough to menstruate, she is old enough to marry. Depending upon your means, it could very well be to your benefit to marry your daughter off as soon as possible.

[delphipsmith]

What surprised me wasn't so much the youth of the girls as the enormous age gap between them and the men. Youthful marriage is something that still happens even today, but the big age disparity is something I associated more with medieval/Renaissance era. Especially since neither Gerald, Frank nor Rhett had been married before.

[gelsey.livejournal.com]

It wasn't uncommon in that period. It fluctuates depending on culture and time period, but back then, not so unusual. In his 40s, she'd have been his second or third wife, his previous ones probably have died in childbirth. Many times men wouldn't marry until they were established.

For example, Regency era, men didn't often marry until their late twenties early thirties if I remember right. And despite what romances say, you weren't on the shelf unless you put yourself there until your late 20s, according to research I've done (if I could find the link I'd send it to yoy). I believe this changed more in the Victorian era when marrying young came more in vogue again. And through out child birth took many women. I'm not as studied in that era though.

[delphipsmith]

True, true. I think what surprised me wasn't so much the youth of the girls as the enormous age gap between them and the men. As you say, youthful marriage has always been around and it still happens even today, but the wide age disparity is something I associated more with medieval/Renaissance era. Especially since neither Gerald, Frank nor Rhett had been married before.

[gelsey.livejournal.com]

Now it was very unusual, I think, for the 40+ man to have never been married before. He would have been thought a rake, likely? or a permanent bachelor of *ahem* perhaps questionable morals. The 30 somethings had a little leeway, but the farther into the decade they got, the more they should have had a wife already.

[tcpip.livejournal.com]

> What's the opposite of a cougar?

Vixen?

> For some reason this never struck me before, but even for the 1860s this seems rather a wide age disparity.

Not unusual when women were (more or less) treated as a commodity for the provision of a new generation of property holders.

It meant that the "ideal" age for a man to marry was when they had reached their level of financial security and for women when they at the age to give birth and bring up the youngster.

The appropriate age for marriage is around eighteen for girls and thirty-seven for men.
Aristotle, Politics, Book VII, 1335.a27

[arcanetrivia]

"Vixen" is a gendered term, meaning specifically a female fox, so I don't think it would be suitable for the male parallel to what we mean by a "cougar".

[tcpip.livejournal.com]

'Cougar' is a gendered metaphor where I'm from as well.

Apparently I misread the title and read 'opposite' as reflecting age rather than gender.

[arcanetrivia]

'Cougar' is a gendered metaphor where I'm from as well.

Yes, I know, hence saying "the male parallel" to that term.

[tcpip.livejournal.com]

FWIW, apparently "rhino"

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rhino

[delphipsmith]

Wow, there really IS a word for it lol! Thanks :)

[reynardo.livejournal.com]

tcpip delphipsmith it always amuses me when two friends from completely different spheres come into contact :-)

[tcpip.livejournal.com]

I think it all started with cheese. :)

[delphipsmith]

"It was the beginning of a brie-autiful friendship."

There is also the puns

[tcpip.livejournal.com]

Re: There is also the puns

[delphipsmith]

Now THAT was bad...

[delphipsmith]

Yeah, sorry about that -- I was meaning an older man who goes after much much younger women :)

Edit: Oh, and thanks for the Aristotle. It's always good to get the classics' point of view ;)